DISASTER!

All about the BT1100
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Re: AW: DISASTER!

Beitrag von 30° » Donnerstag 9. Oktober 2014, 14:49

http://www.amazon.de/Würth-Vereiserspray-II-200ml-4011231894449/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3AWürth%20Vereiserspray%20II%5Cc%20200ml%204011231894449

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- vonunterwegs.de -
Gewinner des III und IV open MDR Bulldog-Cup

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nissbird
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Re: DISASTER!

Beitrag von nissbird » Freitag 10. Oktober 2014, 09:53

Removed the engine casing to find the garage had damaged the end of the crankshaft so much they had to re-thread it with M14! So I will make a tool to protect the end of the crank from my puller:

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eternum
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Re: DISASTER!

Beitrag von eternum » Sonntag 12. Oktober 2014, 10:26

That's bad news.
But now you know why they changed the oil for free ...

nissbird hat geschrieben:So I will make a tool to protect the end of the crank from my puller.

That is a very good idea.
Do you have a photo of the end of the crankshaft?

nissbird hat geschrieben:Question: Where should I strike it with a mallet?

That depends. :wink:
Do you want to pop off or wiggle off the flywheel from the crankshaft?
Using a puller and hammer is basically using force and impact.
One has to find the "sweet spot" using both of them to remove the flywheel.
Applying force only does not always do the job.
Applying impact only does rarely do the job.
And even using both of them is not always successful.
Hence the usage of heat or cold like described in previous messages.

The "pop off" method.
After putting the puller under (high) tension, normally a hit on the centre bolt of the puller should do the trick. But this has probably already been tried a lot of times by the workshop...

The wiggle method.
An alternative can be to use a heavy duty two legged puller, hammer and time.

For reference, lets say:
0° is our reference point, at the exact position of the woodruff key.

1) 0° shift from the woodruff key.
Position leg one of the puller at 0° of the circle described by the flywheel.
Position leg two of the puller at 180° of the circle described by the flywheel.
And the centre bolt of the puller nicely at the middle of the end of the crankshaft (or the part protecting the end of the crankshaft).

While applying moderate force with the puller give alternately a soft axial tap on the flywheel at the spots located at 90° and 270° of the circle described by the flywheel (blue arrow).
Check regularly the force which is applied by the puller and slowly increase the force which is applied by the puller while continuing giving alternately soft axial taps on the flywheel at the spots (blue arrow) located at 90° and 270° of the circle described by the flywheel.
That way you're trying to create a wiggle motion to get the flywheel of the crankshaft.
It is a little bit like grasping the flywheel with both hands and alternately pull on the flywheel with your left and your right arm. But now doing this with a two legged puller and the impact of the (copper) hammer. :lol:
Since the flywheel of the BT1100 has its fitting at the engine side of the flywheel you also can give soft radial taps on the flywheel at the side that's facing you if are on the left side of the Bulldog (green arrow).

Bild

2) 90° shift from the woodruff key.
If it's not successful (yet) turn the two legged puller 90° and repeat the above steps: meaning you will be giving alternately soft axial taps on the flywheel at the spots locate at 0° and 180° of the circle describe by the flywheel.


3) 45° and -45°shift from the woodruff key.
The same holds for a shift of 45° and -45°.

This wiggle method is in general much softer on the end of the crankshaft compared to repeatedly having to try the pop-off method in a "hard" way. But it is a very good idea to protect the end of the crankshaft!

PS With a heavy duty two legged puller I mean something like a Facom U.32T6-20: 3,5kg weight and 60kN pulling force. :wink: That's not a "chocolate" puller, but a stiff puller that will deliver the force and impact where it is needed. OK, a little bit less is still good enough but it has to be very ridged.

@ Tellermine9
It seems you have a second kind of usage for the Cold Spray.
Does the paper shrink when applying Cold Spray? :lol: :lol:

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Re: DISASTER!

Beitrag von 30° » Sonntag 12. Oktober 2014, 10:26

@eternum

So that the thoughts become warm when it's not working again! :lolmen:
Gewinner des III und IV open MDR Bulldog-Cup

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nissbird
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Re: DISASTER!

Beitrag von nissbird » Sonntag 12. Oktober 2014, 17:09

eternum hat geschrieben:That's bad news.
But now you know why they changed the oil for free ...

nissbird hat geschrieben:So I will make a tool to protect the end of the crank from my puller.

That is a very good idea.
Do you have a photo of the end of the crankshaft?

nissbird hat geschrieben:Question: Where should I strike it with a mallet?

That depends. :wink:
Do you want to pop off or wiggle off the flywheel from the crankshaft?
Using a puller and hammer is basically using force and impact.
One has to find the "sweet spot" using both of them to remove the flywheel.
Applying force only does not always do the job.
Applying impact only does rarely do the job.
And even using both of them is not always successful.
Hence the usage of heat or cold like described in previous messages.

The "pop off" method.
After putting the puller under (high) tension, normally a hit on the centre bolt of the puller should do the trick. But this has probably already been tried a lot of times by the workshop...

The wiggle method.
An alternative can be to use a heavy duty two legged puller, hammer and time.

For reference, lets say:
0° is our reference point, at the exact position of the woodruff key.

1) 0° shift from the woodruff key.
Position leg one of the puller at 0° of the circle described by the flywheel.
Position leg two of the puller at 180° of the circle described by the flywheel.
And the centre bolt of the puller nicely at the middle of the end of the crankshaft (or the part protecting the end of the crankshaft).

While applying moderate force with the puller give alternately a soft axial tap on the flywheel at the spots located at 90° and 270° of the circle described by the flywheel (blue arrow).
Check regularly the force which is applied by the puller and slowly increase the force which is applied by the puller while continuing giving alternately soft axial taps on the flywheel at the spots (blue arrow) located at 90° and 270° of the circle described by the flywheel.
That way you're trying to create a wiggle motion to get the flywheel of the crankshaft.
It is a little bit like grasping the flywheel with both hands and alternately pull on the flywheel with your left and your right arm. But now doing this with a two legged puller and the impact of the (copper) hammer. :lol:
Since the flywheel of the BT1100 has its fitting at the engine side of the flywheel you also can give soft radial taps on the flywheel at the side that's facing you if are on the left side of the Bulldog (green arrow).

Bild

2) 90° shift from the woodruff key.
If it's not successful (yet) turn the two legged puller 90° and repeat the above steps: meaning you will be giving alternately soft axial taps on the flywheel at the spots locate at 0° and 180° of the circle describe by the flywheel.


3) 45° and -45°shift from the woodruff key.
The same holds for a shift of 45° and -45°.

This wiggle method is in general much softer on the end of the crankshaft compared to repeatedly having to try the pop-off method in a "hard" way. But it is a very good idea to protect the end of the crankshaft!

PS With a heavy duty two legged puller I mean something like a Facom U.32T6-20: 3,5kg weight and 60kN pulling force. :wink: That's not a "chocolate" puller, but a stiff puller that will deliver the force and impact where it is needed. OK, a little bit less is still good enough but it has to be very ridged.

@ Tellermine9
It seems you have a second kind of usage for the Cold Spray.
Does the paper shrink when applying Cold Spray? :lol: :lol:


I shall try to pop it off because I only have tools for that option.
These are the steps I shall take:

1. Apply "Plus Gas" for several days.
2. Fit crankshaft protector and puller then apply maximum torque for puller center bolt.
3. Fit heat shield(aluminium foil) between end of crank and flywheel.
4. Heat up flywheel with hot air gun.
5. Freeze end of crank with freezer spray.
6. Tap puller center bolt.
7. Repeat steps 4 to 6 until successful or until I fall on my sword.

Do I stand a chance?

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eternum
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Re: DISASTER!

Beitrag von eternum » Sonntag 12. Oktober 2014, 23:38

You always have a chance.
And chances increase/decrease depending on the difficulty of the job to be done, tools available, skills, etc.

What kind of puller/adapter are you going to use?
The ones Yamaha recommends?
  • Flywheel Puller YU-33270, 90890-01362 (fits most)
  • adapter YM-38145, 90890-04131 (1100 only)

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Re: DISASTER!

Beitrag von nissbird » Montag 13. Oktober 2014, 11:22

This puller, but I have a plate to add to it.

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eternum
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Re: DISASTER!

Beitrag von eternum » Montag 13. Oktober 2014, 19:00

Let's hope you will be able to apply the needed amount of force and impact.

My opinion is that you can apply force to some degree (how many kN?). But that's also the bare minimum you can expect from a puller. My opinion is also that you will not be able to make reasonable use of the impact component (momentum to be more exact) using this puller.
It is not because one taps (very) hard on the centre bolt that the impact will be used to separate the flywheel from the crankshaft. Quite often people are just destroying the end of the crankshaft if the flywheel just don't want to pop off easily (and in case there is no adequate protection of the end of the crankshaft).

I have no intention to be rude, just want to give you my honest opinion.

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Re: DISASTER!

Beitrag von nissbird » Dienstag 14. Oktober 2014, 13:26

Applied 100nm and left it until this evening when I shall apply "general" heat to the flywheel followed by freezing the crank


eternum
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Re: DISASTER!

Beitrag von eternum » Mittwoch 15. Oktober 2014, 12:29

Did the flywheel meanwhile pop off using general heat and Cold Spray?

====================================
````````FYI: puller // extractor´´´´´´´´
====================================
I don't know if you have a friend or relative with a lathe.
If so, you can easily (and cheap) make an "extractor" using a round iron bar (~ 4-5cm diameter) and a thinner steel rod (~ 12-16mm diameter, approx. 50-70cm long).
Make an adapter using a piece of the thick round iron bar in which:
  • the end of the crankshaft fits
  • has three holes which you use to securely bolt this adapter to your flywheel
  • has an axial inner threading in which you can scr*w the thinner steel rod

Cut threading on both ends of the thinner steel rod:
  • one side to fit the adapter
  • one side to put an nut on (or another piece of 1cm of the thick round iron bar with axial threading)

One piece of the thick round iron bar (~ 4-5cm diameter, 15 cm long) in which you drill a hole slightly bigger then the diameter of thinner steel rod.

Have a drink with you friend/relative after or while you're turning some lumps of iron/steel in the desired "extractor". :beer: :beer:

[bbvideo=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPewixT0qUQ[/bbvideo]

[bbvideo=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WPQdoRem4k[/bbvideo]

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Re: DISASTER!

Beitrag von nissbird » Mittwoch 15. Oktober 2014, 15:07

Did not come off.
Extractor bolt now Kaput.
New extractor design below, if this does not work I shall adapt it to suit the puller in your video thanks for the info

Bild

Yes I have a lathe


eternum
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Re: DISASTER!

Beitrag von eternum » Mittwoch 15. Oktober 2014, 18:01

Ok. With a lathe you can really build what you need in this case.
Perfect!

Regarding the bolts.
If you have higher grade bolts then 8.8 it will be much better in my opinion.
Tapping on a 12.9 bolt will much better transfer the impulse: one absolutely feels that the energy is not lost like in the softer iron.
Compare a 8.8 with a 10.9 or 12.9 on this page: Bolt Grade Markings and Strength Chart

If I am building something myself I tend to find some salvaged parts from transmissions/engines.
It's almost free high tensile steel. :mrgreen:
Lots of high grade bolts, axes, etc. :lol:

I'm really confident that your flywheel will pop off one of the next days.

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